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Matt Brzycki
High Intensity Training Interview
Matt Brzycki's workout methods are a blend of rigorous scientific principles and practical, real-world application, making them accessible to beginners and inspiring for seasoned fitness enthusiasts alike. In this high intensity training interview, we'll dive deep into the core philosophies that make Matt Brzycki's workouts stand out, and we'll explore the innovative techniques that have made his programs a staple in the workout regimens of those seeking to achieve peak physical condition. Whether you're looking to build strength, enhance your endurance, or simply get a taste of Brzycki's fitness wisdom, you're in the right place to start your journey to a healthier, stronger you.
By Brian D. Johnston
Brian D. Johnston: Richard, you have an interesting academic background. Tell me about it and how you have applied your skills and education to your current profession and training.
Brian D. Johnston: Brief us on your background, and your current projects.
Matt Brzycki: After graduating from high school in 1975, I enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. A little more than 28 months after beginning Basic Training -- a.k.a. Boot Camp -- I was promoted meritoriously to the rank of sergeant. In 1978 -- at the age of 21 -- I was one of the youngest Drill Instructors in the entire Marine Corps. Among my responsibilities as a Drill Instructor was the physical preparedness of Marine recruits. Shortly after my 4-year enlistment ended in August 1979, I began classes at Penn State for the fall 1979 trimester.
I was first exposed to HIT in March 1980 while interviewing for
a part-time job at the 4F Club, a fitness center located in Forty
Fort, Pennsylvania. During the interview, Tom Laputka -- the general
manager of the club -- lectured me on such things as momentary
muscular failure, strength curves, inroads, intermuscular friction
and many other terms that were unfamiliar to me. I later learned
that he was one of the world's first 500-pound bench pressers
as well as an ex-pro football player who was a lineman for the
Toronto Argonauts in the Canadian Football League and for the
Philadelphia Bell in the short-lived World Football League. I
also learned that Tom and some guy named Casey Viator were once
trained by somebody named Arthur Jones. Tom said that the way
he gets to know people is to train with them and we scheduled
a HIT workout for the next day. And I've never been quite the
same since.
In December 1980, I had the opportunity to take a course called
"Development of Strength Training Programs" which was
taught by Penn State's Strength Coach, Dan Riley. Within weeks
of the class ending, Dan was hired as the Strength Coach of the
Washington Redskins -- a position that he still holds to this
day. Among other things, his course further detailed the concepts
and applications of HIT.
In 1983, I graduated from Penn State with a Bachelor of Science degree in Health and Physical Education. From May 1983 to August 1984, I served as a Health Fitness Supervisor at Princeton University. From September 1984 to July 1990, I was the Assistant Strength and Conditioning Coach at Rutgers University where I worked with literally hundreds of male and female athletes in a wide variety of sports including wrestling, football, gymnastics, lacrosse, golf, softball, soccer, basketball and cross country. I returned to Princeton University in August 1990 as the Health Fitness Coordinator and Strength Coach. In February 1994, my job was reclassified as the Coordinator of Health Fitness, Strength and Conditioning which was retroactive to December 1993. My present job has many administrative responsibilities including teaching a variety of non-credit, fitness-related Physical Education classes to the university students, faculty and staff. I've also had the opportunity to teach credit classes at two local colleges: Rutgers University and The College of New Jersey. At Rutgers, I developed the Strength Training Theory and Applications course for their Exercise Science and Sports Studies majors and have taught the program since March 1990 as a member of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences. At The College of New Jersey -- formerly known as Trenton State College -- I've also taught the same course since January 1996 albeit with a different name. All told, more than 600 university students in fitness-related majors have taken my courses in strength training for academic credit. Additionally, I've been a featured speaker at local, regional, state and national conferences and clinics throughout the United States and Canada. I've authored more than 175 articles that have been featured in 33 different publications as well as three books -- A Practical Approach to Strength Training, Youth Strength and Conditioning and Cross Training for Fitness -- and co-authored Conditioning for Basketball with Shaun Brown, the Strength and Conditioning Coach of the Boston Celtics. Finally, I developed a correspondence course through Desert Southwest Fitness in Tucson, Arizona, that is used by strength and fitness professionals to update their certifications. The course has been approved and accepted for continuing education credits by 12 organizations including the American Council on Exercise, the Australian Fitness Advisory Council, the International Fitness Professionals Association, the International Weightlifting Association and the National Federation of Personal Trainers.
As far as current projects, I'm most excited about serving as an editor for a book called "Maximize your Training: Insights from Top Strength and Fitness Professionals." Scheduled for an October release, the massive 448-page book features the collective efforts of 37 leaders in the strength and fitness profession. They have a variety of backgrounds and experiences in strength and fitness including seven widely known researchers and educators with doctoral degrees, one prominent medical doctor, three respected practioners who are strength and conditioning coaches at the professional level -- in baseball, basketball and football -- and ten collegiate strength and conditioning coaches for major universities. Also featured are several individuals like Ken Leistner and yourself who might best be described as pioneers. This book -- whose authors sound like a veritable Who's Who of HIT -- represents a unique and valuable collection of the vast expertise of the contributors which encompasses hundreds of years. With 31 chapters containing nearly 160,000 words of text, 35 figures, 12 tables and 80 photographs, the book comprises an extensive amount of information. The subject matter is very comprehensive and includes a history of strength training, program design, high intensity training versus high volume training, motivation, developing athletic skills, bodybuilding HIT, powerlifting HIT, flexibility, nutrition, metabolic conditioning, steroids and strength training for special populations such as women, older adults and prepubescents.
I started competing in powerlifting in 1976 and, in my first meet, won the 165-pound class of the Base Powerlifting Championship while stationed at Marine Corps Base 29 Palms, California. In 1978, I won the 155-pound class [no typo] of the Base Bench Press Championships which was also at 29 Palms. However, I was much more enthusiastic about tests of fitness and/or muscular endurance. In the early part of 1976, I did 1,005 consecutive situps in 38 minutes in a contest held on the base. By the way, Brian, these were traditional situps, not crunches. For the situp to count, you had to bring your torso all the way up until your forehead was between your knees and go back down such that your head touched the mat. Later that year -- despite the fact that I was powerlifting -- I ran 3 miles in 19 minutes and 55 seconds and in 1977, I was a member of our unit's cross-country team that finished second in a base-wide competition. Several months before my enlistment expired in 1979, I did 468 situps in 15 minutes and 201 consecutive pushups -- more than any other Marine -- at a spring carnival.
In 1980, I competed in an odd-lift meet consisting of the bench press and bicep curl. At a bodyweight of just under 165 pounds, I did a pretty strict 135-pound curl with a barbell. At Penn State, I competed in the 165-pound weight class for the Powerlifting Team during my sophomore and junior years (1980-82). My last powerlifting meet was in March 1982, and I did a 410-pound squat, a 260-pound bench press and a 440-pound deadlift for a 1,110-pound total at a bodyweight of 162. All of these were personal bests except for the bench press. My best bench press in competition was 265 as a 165-pounder, which I believe was during 1981. This was without assistance from the so-called bench shirts. I also competed in bodybuilding, placing third in my first competition in the summer of 1981. Needless to say, there wasn't much future in competitive powerlifting or bodybuilding for a guy who was nearly 5'11" and 165 pounds.
But again, Brian, my real passion was in tests of fitness and/or muscular endurance. In the fall of 1981 -- with absolutely no specific training whatsoever -- I set a new record for Penn State Physical Education majors in the 400-meter dash. It was short-lived, however, as the mark was broken the next day by a classmate. In the spring of 1982, I entered the Nittany Lion Pushup-A-Thon -- which was and still is a popular event on the Penn State campus -- and performed 287 pushups. At the time, this was supposedly a record for the event.
Brian D. Johnston: I find it interesting that you hold your current position as a strength and conditioning coach for a major college -- most colleges require NSCA certification or some other non-HIT designation. How did that come about?
Well, Brian, I'm really not a strength and conditioning coach
anymore. As I said before, when I was first hired by Princeton
University in August of 1990, I had two titles: Health Fitness
Coordinator and Strength Coach. My position was reclassified about
5 years ago as the Coordinator of Health Fitness, Strength and
Conditioning. Currently, I have numerous administrative and teaching
responsibilities and -- with the exception of a few teams -- I
am no longer involved much in the way of training athletes. At
any rate, I honestly don't remember whether or not the 1990 job
description called for NSCA certification. It may have but I simply
don't remember.
When I first applied for my current job in 1990, I was actually
certified as a CSCS by the NSCA anyway. I took their CSCS exam
on June 19, 1986, at Columbia University in New York City and
was literally one of the first people to earn that certification.
The level of difficulty of the CSCS exam was disappointing --
I simply reviewed some NSCA publications several hours prior to
the exam and had a brief skull session with two other HIT colleagues.
I've studied harder and longer when getting certified for CPR.
Seriously. Yet, the CSCS exam is very highly regarded in some
circles. In my opinion, this is mostly due to the impression that
the certification must be important and meaningful because it
is administered by an organization whose name sounds as if it
is an authoritative, governing body. Now, I'm not knocking anyone
who has a CSCS.
All I'm saying is that obtaining this particular certification isn't really all that demanding or challenging so people shouldn't fluff it up into something much bigger and more important than it really is. We're not talking about passing the bar exam here, Brian. At any rate, I've long since allowed my certification to expire because the CSCS exam and the NSCA are ridiculously and hopelessly biased toward competitive weightlifting-inspired programming.
I think that the NSCA and their CSCS exam are good ideas that have gone terribly awry. According to their mission statement, their "goal at the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) is to unify members and facilitate a professional exchange of ideas in strength development as it relates to improvement of athletic performance and fitness." Unify members? If anything, the organization -- specifically the Old Guard -- has alienated many potential members with their biased thinking. Isn't it ironic, Brian, to think that the NSCA has been such a divisive force in the strength and fitness profession yet regularly used the phrase "bridge the gap"? Indeed, the NSCA having a Unity Council is a bit like Iraq having a Human Rights Committee.
Their mission statement further notes, "Since our inception in 1978, the NSCA has been working hard with well known industry experts to enhance, enlighten, and advance the field of strength and conditioning." Yeah, sure. Through their affiliation with the NSCA, some individuals have become anointed as experts. If it wasn't for the NSCA, the celebrated status of the Old Guard would drop dramatically. In truth, the NSCA is an organization in which a group of biased, narrow-minded individuals call the shots. These hardliners have used the organization to achieve a higher level of prominence on the food chain. A non-profit organization -- such as the NSCA -- should serve the members, not the other way around. It should also operate in the best interests of the members, not in the vested interests of a select few. And their periodical is little more than a mouthpiece of propaganda for the self-serving, self-important, self-absorbed and self-proclaimed experts with their own personal agendas.
You know, Brian, this is all very unfortunate. Who's ultimately suffering because of the NSCA's unwillingness to be an unbiased, open-minded organization is the strength and fitness profession and everyone in it. Strength and fitness professionals are being purposely exposed to and brainwashed by the opinions of a relative few -- opinions that have been beyond reproach and presented as scientific fact. If the NSCA truly existed for the betterment of the strength and fitness profession, it would offer a variety of perspectives. But it doesn't. I can almost understand a private entity or business that doesn't present different perspectives but a non-profit organization that should be representative of a wide range of members? While on the subject, who exactly was it that proclaimed the NSCA to be a "world-wide authority on strength and conditioning"?
It really makes you wonder when you consider that, for the most part, the NSCA has chosen to first ignore then later criticize and attack HIT -- despite its ever-growing popularity over the past 3 decades. And some of the research that they present as evidence against HIT is so patently one-sided that it's laughable. They continue to cite studies with design flaws that would not be worthy of a passing grade in a high school science project. Brian, imagine a study -- actually, it was referred to as an "experiment" -- in which two groups of subjects were pre-tested in the hang clean. One group -- the multiple-set group -- did hang cleans as part of their training; the other group -- the single-set group -- did not. After 14 weeks of training, both groups were post-tested in the hang clean. Can you possibly stack the deck anymore against HIT? And how does dubious research like that manage to pass the supposed peer-review process? The funny thing about this is that the NSCA couldn't be more obvious about their bias if they placed a full-page, color ad in The New York Times.
Brian D. Johnston: When training your athletes, how do you determine what program is 'appropriate' for their needs, and can you provide a sample routine?
Matt Brzycki: When I've trained athletes in the past, my main concerns have
been decreasing their injury potential and increasing their performance
potential. The word "potential" is very significant
here, Brian. Strength coaches have to remember that they are merely
facilitators. And this is a painful pill for many to swallow.
Some think that they are solely responsible for an athlete's success
on the playing field and are the first ones in line to take credit
for victories. If that's the case, strength coaches who are eager
to give themselves a great deal of credit when their teams win
should also be given a great deal of blame when their teams lose.
As you know, Brian, nothing that an athlete does in the weight
room will directly lead to improved performance in the athletic
arena. Nothing. Strength training can only improve an athlete's
potential. Practicing skills in the exact manner that they are
used in competition is of far greater importance in improving
performance. And no attempt should be made to practice the skills
with weighted objects since this will, at best, be a tragic waste
of time. At worst, it will confuse the original neuromuscular
pathways and essentially result in the learning of a new -- and
utterly worthless -- skill with a movement pattern that is less
efficient than that without the weighted object.
Moreover, athletes who ask questions such as "How can I get
my abs ripped?" or "What can I do to get my arms bigger?"
or "How can I set the school record in the bench press?"
indicate that their priorities are not in order. While these questions
might be appropriate for competitive weightlifters and bodybuilders
they are -- or should be -- irrelevant and meaningless to other
athletes. Better questions would be "What's the best way
to strengthen my neck to prevent injury?" or "How can
I improve my level of conditioning on the field?"
Whenever I prescribe a program for individuals -- whether or not
they are athletes -- I prefer to involve them as much as possible
in the design. Suppose that I directed a person to do a certain
exercise with a specific piece of equipment -- such as having
them squat with a barbell -- and that person doesn't especially
like doing it? Well, the person is less likely to do the exercise
with a desirable level of enthusiasm -- and may not even do the
exercise at all. Then suppose that the entire workout consisted
of exercises and equipment that the person wasn't crazy about
and it'd be no surprise if that person got poor results. Or stopped
training altogether. So, I might say, "Okay, you need to
do an exercise for your hips and here's the possibilities: You
can do a leg press on a selectorized or plate-loaded machine;
deadlift with an Olympic bar, a trap bar or dumbbells; squat with
a barbell; or hip abduction/hip adduction with a selectorized
or plate-loaded machine or manual resistance. You pick."
If they do not have a preference, I'll choose an exercise for
them.
In terms of program design, these are my general recommendations
for most individuals -- again, whether or not they are an athlete:
One exercise for the hips, hamstrings, quadriceps, calves or dorsi
flexors, biceps, triceps, abdominals and lower back; two exercises
for the chest, upper back and shoulders. These 14 movements address
all of the major muscles in the body. I'm not saying that this
number is magical or etched on a stone tablet. Some HIT advocates
prescribe less and others more. As long as an individual is consistently
making progress then he or she is getting adequate recovery and
the volume of exercises is reasonable. In addition, I'd encourage
athletes who are involved in combative sports -- such as football,
wrestling and boxing -- to perform 2-4 neck exercises to strengthen
their cervical areas. Finally, I'd also suggest that athletes
who are involved in sports that require grip strength -- such
as baseball, golf and tennis -- do an additional exercise to strengthen
their lower arms, including their wrists, hands and fingers.
That said, a sample routine could look like this:
Deadlift
Leg Curl
Leg Extension
Calf Raise
Bent Arm Fly
Negative-Only Dip
Pullover
Negative-Only Chin
Shoulder Shrug
Upright Row
Tricep Extension
Bicep Curl
Side Bend
Back Extension
Brian D. Johnston: Relay some of the progress your players have achieved in the weight room under your guidance.
Matt Brzycki: As I said, Brian, I personally don't train many athletes on a regular basis anymore. But one athlete who quickly comes to mind is Trevor Tierney, a sophomore goalie on our lacrosse team. His story is a bit unique in that he attended a local prep school -- his father is the coach of the 5-time national champion lacrosse team here at the university -- and began using a structured weight training program in the summer of 1993 when he was 14. By the time he turned 16, Trevor had increased his level of intensity to the point where he was training exceptionally hard and he started to see noticeable results. His body fat was the lowest that I've personally ever measured in the past 20 years -- less than 6.5%. From the summer of 1997 to the early part of February 1999 -- just prior to the start of lacrosse season -- his bodyweight increased from approximately 170 to a chiseled 190 pounds. Trevor reports the following progress that he made in a few selected exercises during that period of time:
1. Hammer Leg Press from 180 x 15-20 to 420 x 15-20
2. Barbell Bench press from a 1-RM of 180 to 8 reps with 180
3. Dips from doing 8-10 reps with 40 pounds of assistance (from
a machine) to 8-10 reps with his bodyweight plus 20 pounds of
resistance.
4. Chins from doing 8-12 reps with 40 pounds of assistance (from
a machine) to 8 reps with his bodyweight plus 45 pounds of resistance.
5. Barbell Bicep Curl from 55 x 10-12 to 90 x 10-12
I should add that Trevor has very long limbs which puts him at a bit of a disadvantage in all of these movements. Yet, look again at his performance in the chinning movement, for example. In less than 2 years, he went from doing 8-12 reps with 40 pounds of assistance to 8 reps with his bodyweight plus an additional 45 pounds of resistance. At first glance, that seems like an improvement of 85 pounds. But, don't forget that his bodyweight also increased by about 20 pounds for a total increase in resistance of about 105 pounds. And Trevor improved his bench press such that he could do 8 reps with his previous one-rep max.
Our wrestling coach, Mike New, is a huge proponent of HIT. In fact, Coach New used HIT when he wrestled at Penn State. One of his wrestling captains, junior Ryan Bonfiglio, has incorporated a HIT program regularly since the end of the 1998 wrestling season. From March 1998 to May 1999, his bodyweight increased from approximately 150 to a strapping 175 pounds. Ryan notes the following progress that he made in a few selected exercises during that period of time:
1. Hammer Leg Press from 400 x 10-15 to 600 x 15-20;
2. Nautilus Leg Extension from 170 x 12-15 to 230 x 12-15;
3. Barbell Bench Press from 160 x 8-12 to 210 x 8-12;
4. Hammer Lat Pulldown from 170 x 8-12 to 220 x 8-12;
5. Barbell Bicep Curl from 85 x 8-12 to 110 x 8-12
Keep in mind, too, that nearly 5 months out of this 14-month period
were during the wrestling season where it is extremely difficult
to make increases in muscular size and strength. As a side note,
Ryan wrestled as a 142-pounder in 1997-98 and as a 165-pounder
in 1998-99. In October 1998, his body fat was measured by one
of our athletic trainers at less than 6% at a bodyweight of about
170.
Let me also add that the physical and athletic achievements of
Trevor and Ryan are the result of their purposeful, no-nonsense
approach to strength training, conditioning and skill work coupled
with their intense dedication and desire to realize their potential
as collegiate athletes. They're the ones who deserve the credit
for their success.
In May 1999, my long-time training partner, Tony Alexander, pulled 394 x 20 in the trap bar deadlift at a bodyweight of about 235 -- and without wearing a weightlifting belt. Incidentally, these were 20 consecutive reps without any pauses. He's also done 10 dips with his 235-pound bodyweight plus an additional 130 pounds -- that's like a 365-pound man doing 10 dips. Tony's most recent effort in negative-only chins was his bodyweight plus 106.25 pounds for 8 reps that were a legitimate 8 seconds per rep. Finally, Tony has recently done 290 x 10 in the barbell bench press. By the way, Brian, he did not do any warm-up sets whatsoever prior to any of these efforts. None. They were all one set to muscular fatigue. As for me, I recorded a personal best of 284 x 20 in the trap bar deadlift in May 1999 at a bodyweight of 172 -- with no warm-up sets or weightlifting belt. And with no pauses between reps. That was a personal best 20-rep trap bar deadlift for me . . . at the age of 42.
Brian D. Johnston: Would a program differ (in your capacity) for one of your players versus the average individual on the street . . . not necessarily recovery and ability wise, but in regards to focusing in on certain key aspects?
Matt Brzycki: Again, Brian, I think that the main priority in training athletes is injury prevention. Individuals who aren't competitive athletes probably won't have that as a priority. For the most part, however, my opinion is that the actual training prescriptions for athletes and average individuals would be quite similar. Regardless of whether or not you're an athlete, the Overload Principle must still be used in order to increase muscular size and strength. In terms of average individuals, I'd still encourage them to give as much effort as they possibly can during each exercise; I'd still encourage them to keep their workouts brief, efficient and purposeful; I'd still encourage them to progress in resistance and repetitions whenever possible; I'd still encourage them to perform their repetitions in a fashion such that momentum does not play a major role in raising the weight; I'd still encourage them to exercise all of their major muscle groups; I'd still encourage them to allow for adequate recovery between workouts; and I'd still encourage them to keep accurate records of their performance in the weight room.
While on the subject, Brian, over the past 2 decades I've seen some average individuals in their 50s and 60s train with a greater level of effort than competitive athletes half their age.
Brian D. Johnston: As a HIT advocate, who is well respected and experienced in the field, what is your opinion on many of the pro-periodization/high-volume people in regards to actually believing what they promote versus saving face or promoting a particular method to remain within the clique or to make money? .
Matt Brzycki: Well, I often wonder if some people actually believe in the information that they promote or if they are only interested in making a buck. It also makes me wonder when some people completely disregard any scientific evidence that contradicts what they believe. But at least periodization and high volume applications aren't necessarily dangerous. Unless, of course, you consider the fact that a huge training volume increases the risk for overuse injuries.
Brian D. Johnston: The current trend with many HITers is to avoid any type of aerobic conditioning . . . that HIT can "provide it all." What are your thoughts?
Matt Brzycki: This topic has caused considerable debate among the HIT factions. Here's my take: I think proper HIT -- that is, performing each set with a high degree of effort and taking a minimal amount of time between sets -- provides an extremely high level of metabolic demands that stress both the aerobic and anaerobic energy systems. By just doing HIT, I think that people can improve not only their anaerobic conditioning but their aerobic conditioning as well. On the other hand, how many people lift weights with anywhere near an appropriate level of intensity? The truth is not many. Most people simply don't perform their sets with a desirable level of effort -- at least not with any degree of regularity. And if sufficient effort is used during a set, it's almost a given that far too much time is taken to recover between exercises or sets.
Some people are unaware that they need to train in an intense manner. Indeed, they've read and been told erroneous information such as "Be careful not to exercise too hard so that you remain in your fat-burning zone." Others simply don't want any part of the discomfort associated with HIT.
Since the end of 1998, one of my three weekly strength training
workouts involves 9 exercises all done to the point of muscular
fatigue. These workouts usually take me less than 20 minutes to
complete. At the end of the workouts, my heart rate is typically
about 160 beats per minute. Being 42 years old, that's almost
90% of my age-predicted heart rate. I'm convinced that this style
of training gives me an aerobic (and metabolic) conditioning effect.
As a side note, that's just about the same heart rate I have at
the end of an intense 20-minute workout using traditional aerobic
activities such as the StairMaster.
Another reason why I think that traditional aerobic conditioning
is important is in preparing athletes for their sports. Let's
face it, athletes who participate in sports that require running
need to run as part of their training. Simply lifting weights
will not prepare them sufficiently for running up and down the
fields of play.
Personally, I've found another side benefit from aerobic training: I can get through my HIT workouts with less recovery between exercises.
Let's also not forget the fact that many people simply enjoy doing aerobic conditioning. Hey, as long as a person is doing aerobic conditioning with activities that are orthopedically appropriate and of reasonable duration -- that is, low impact and low volume -- I see nothing wrong with it. As for me, I've done 2 aerobic sessions a week for nearly 20 years. Currently, these 2 sessions add up to 40 minutes of traditional aerobic conditioning a week.
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