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Ken Leistner Interview
Ken Leistner HIT Training Workouts
When it comes to strength training and conditioning, few names in the industry are spoken with as much veneration and respect as that of Dr. Ken Leistner. A legendary figure in the world of iron-clad athletes and weekend warriors alike, Dr. Ken, as he was affectionately known, was not just an iconic strength coach but also a chiropractor, a thought leader, and a passionate proponent of no-nonsense, high-intensity training methods. His philosophy eschewed the frills and gimmicks often sold to the unsuspecting fitness enthusiast in favor of hard work, consistency, and a deep understanding of the body's capabilities. In this interview, we're going to dive into the fundamentals of Dr. Ken Leistner's training principles, exploring how his teachings have left an indelible mark on the world of fitness and how they can still be applied to your workouts for transformative results.
By Brian D. Johnston
Brian D. Johnston: Your career is quite extensive. Explain how you first started strength training, then provide a timeline of your career up to this point.
Ken Leistner: I began to train when I was approximately thirteen years old. I wanted to be a football player and saw how big the high school players were. A guy named Eddie Beck tore up Uniondale H.S. and at that time, 1957 or 1958, he was one of the 'greats' at Long Beach H.S. That did it for me but I had to wait another year or two to begin lifting as my father was dead set against it. I began with a truck axle and flywheels, cement filled pails, and similar objects, training in the garage. From there, I trained at the college, really at the Central YMCA as the school had no real weight room. I went from 125 pounds my sophomore year in high school, 135 pounds as a junior, 145 pounds as a senior, 152 pounds my freshman year in college, 202 pounds the next fall camp, and 232 pounds after that, where I stayed for seven years or so. I played ball, used my "heft" to bounce at local clubs and eventually "graduate" to providing security for Motown Records, tours with Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, The Band, Fleetwood Mac, The Grateful Dead, Little Richard (oh the stories I could tell!), and many others. I taught, coached, and was an administrator at the high school level, was a welder, tractor trailer driver, lumberjack, and perhaps nineteen other things before going back to school and becoming a chiropractor. I've now practiced for over twenty years. I write for a number of publications and have had over 1000 articles published. I think those are the highlights.
Brian D. Johnston: Jack of all trades! You probably have more experience in different fields than most people realize. What led to your involvement with Arthur Jones, and what roles did you play with Nautilus?
Ken Leistner: I was living in a van and was in Cincinnati for awhile. Kim Wood was the one who encouraged me to "go down to Florida and see Arthur", and I did. In a conversation with John Szimanski from PDA (manufacturer of fractional plates), Arthur said, "Yeah, Ken was around here for a time but I can't recall exactly what he did". I did a little bit of everything. I swept the factory floor, did the landscaping at the Lake Helen plant, did machine assembly, worked in the prototype shop, lived in and did the demolition work on Arthur's house, drove the tractor trailer and made deliveries and installations, demonstrated equipment, trained people when they came to the facility and when back in New York City, worked at Nick Orlando's place where Arthur was the "silent partner" in the Northeast distributorship.
Brian D. Johnston: Tell us about some of the workouts that you witnessed bodybuilders perform while at Nautilus, particularly the bigger names, such as Casey Viator.
Ken Leistner: Casey trained very hard when Arthur was around, less so otherwise, but he was a great physique and unbelievably strong. Words won't do him justice. Kim Wood also trained very hard, as did Tom Laputka. Laputka was a freak also, and that's a compliment; huge, strong, unreal weights doing eccentrics, like 700+ on pullovers, things like that. We had a lot of prototypes we would fool with and train on. The best story was the time I got launched out of the first squat machine, six or eight feet into the air across the factory floor in the middle of a set. I was laid out on the concrete, head cut, and Arthur leaned over, everyone else hanging back and said, "I think we need a seat belt on this thing" and walked away, puffing on his cigarette. Everyone cracked up because I could have died right there and Arthur was totally focused on the function of the machine.
Brian D. Johnston: Only Arthur! After Nautilus, how did you get involved with Hammer Strength?
Ken Leistner: Actually, Kim Wood worked for Arthur almost from the beginnings of Nautilus. At Arthur's behest, he went to work with Pete Brown and the Bengals, in order to properly set up both the training programs for the Bengals and teach everyone in Cincinnati about every aspect of Nautilus equipment and training principles. Although Pete owned the Nautilus Midwest distributorship, Kim was the brains and guts behind it in that he spearheaded everything they did, especially at the beginning. He really pushed them to great heights, had the best and most motivated sales people, gave the best of service to clients. If, for example, Nautilus grossed X millions of dollars in any year between 1974 and 1984, Nautilus Midwest produced about fifty percent of that income. Arthur sold the company in 1986 and in 1988, Hammer was ready to go with Pete, Kim, and Gary Jones as the principles.
I was on the ground floor in that we had spent a lot of time working on the Nautilus Leverage machines in 1985-86. Once again, Kim was a prime mover with these, with input from a number of individuals including Mike Gittleson, George Johns, Gary Jones of course who actually produced them in the Mexica, TX plant, and me. Our input helped to improve what Gary and Kim were doing. These essentially served as prototypes for Hammer. Gary moved his computer stuff into my house and within a few days we had the designs for the first eight Hammer machines.
I've told the story before, but Kevin actually came up with the idea for a leg press that could be used either bilaterally or unilaterally. In using the term ipsilateral, describing lesions that occur on one side of the body and have their effect on the same side, I used this in an article and in conversation to try to describe the new equipment that as memory serves, may not have yet been shown in public. Kim and I in conversation one day, "played with it" and came up with the term Iso Lateral in about a five minute time period, a word which to us, described the pieces and the action of the equipment. In June, 1988, the machines were shown at the Club Industry Show and that was that. Now that Life Fitness owns Hammer, I do the newsletter for them but have no input on equipment. I am pleased however, that Greg Webb, director of research and development, and manufacturing for Nautilus, speaks with me almost weekly. He calls to talk anatomy and kinesiology and I have had continuing input with them because of this but nothing at Hammer.
Brian D. Johnston: The newsletter you're referring to is Hard Training. How are you enjoying being the editor and how are subscriptions doing? Also, provide our readers ordering information since I think it is an invaluable resource for all athletes, coaches and even general fitness enthusiasts.
Ken Leistner: I like the Hard Training Newsletter although I get everyone in the office a bit nuts by continuously referring to it as the HIT newsletter. They specifically wanted a presentation of more diverse training ideas and in the past few issues, I've tried to do this. I have no problem presenting or talking about different training philosophies. It may not reflect what I personally believe, but the authors are reputable and knowledgeable and have their own beliefs which they can defend to the satisfaction of many. We're allowing for an opportunity for many in the strength field to voice their opinions and information. In January 2000, we went to a six issue per year frequency rather than quarterly. Subscriptions and information can be obtained from the Hammer Athletic Sales Office at 1-877-543-1123.
Brian D. Johnston: Has your coaching approach altered much over the years? Also, if you can recall, provide the accomplishments of the best individuals you trained.
Ken Leistner: No, my approach always centered on hard work and it remains that way, with work for the major muscle groups. I like squats if one can do them efficiently and safely and most can if taught properly. I also like the stifflegged deadlift. My sons have benefitted greatly from training in a hard, brief manner. Kevin (see photo 4) enjoyed a very productive football career at the Naval Academy and went through a number of pro camps. Active duty definitely cost him his professional career but he has more than made up for it as a strength coach at the University Of Miami in Florida and the many athletes he has assisted. Gregory (see figure 1 and 2) was an All America and now coaches for the Carolina Panthers... not in the strength area, but as a football coach. The lessons they learned "under the bar", one of hard work, discipline, all of the things you are supposed to derive from training, they got and it has helped them enormously in their careers. The youngest, Sol (see photo 3), was a two time national drug free powerlifting champion but focuses now on his college course work, his music, and training to stay in good condition. He just likes to train and he does a very good job of it. Too many guys failed to live up to their potential because they could not consistently train hard and train productively too many to mention.
Brian D. Johnston: Can you outline the progress that Kevin and Gregory have made, such as starting poundages when you first worked with them and what they were capable of lifting after a certain time period?
Ken Leistner: In both Kevin and Gregory's situations, they began to train at the ages of twelve and thirteen respectively and continued to do so for many years without interruption. This is a key: consistency over time. Kevin was on active duty, storing his weights in a 10'x10' hold and had to lift in accordance with the sway of the ship, yet did so. He would be on special assignment, be up at times for days at a stretch, and yet train. Same for Gregory. Being All State in high school for Catholic schools wasn't enough, for example, he had to work to be All State, period. It wasn't enough to be All Conference he had to be an All America. Drive, motivation, however one terms it, coupled with consistency, as in never missing even one workout over many years, is a potent combination, no matter what one's training philosophy is. While neither boy sought to lift "heavy weights", just improve for football, both did. In the bench press for example, a lift we did not focus on too much but one that is used by all football players as a measuring stick, Kevin did 510x1, Gregory 475x1 with Kevin at 248 pounds, Greg at 252-255. Kevin squatted 600x30, Gregory 550x11, neither with supportive equipment or drugs so that gives the reader an idea of what is possible when working hard and doing so on the basics.
Brian D. Johnston: Six hundred for 30 reps is amazing. Casey Viator, a genetic freak, who was probably on steroids at the time, could only do 400 x 20 reps. What standards and methods of measurement do you use to gauge a routine's success, and what factors influence you to redesign a program?
Ken Leistner: A routine is successful if the athlete derives what we want from it and that can vary; more strength, more muscular size, more speed in skill related tasks, better overall "conditioning". It depends on the individual's goals. I tinker constantly and no one does the same thing and no two workouts in any week are alike. That rule of thumb has worked well for us.
Brian D. Johnston: Can you give an example of a sample routine you would provide for an athlete focusing on strength versus muscular size, and how those programs would differ for an average person without the genetics of a collegiate athlete? No need to be super-detailed, but a basic overview and some reasoning behind your choices.
Ken Leistner: I don't know if there was a "sample" as we always changed things but we squatted and did stifflegged deadlifts almost all of the time. We trained generally two, sometimes three times per week, deadlifting in some form once, squatting once or twice for varied reps, often 15-30. We stressed overhead pressing rather than the bench press and usually did one or two work sets of any one movement. Nothing fancy. If there was one machine we would emphasize, it would be the Nautilus Pullover machine. At times, a full program might consist of the Pullover Machine, squat, and a deadlift of some type in various combinations. With an overhead press, it really would be complete. Also, I have always liked to carry "junk" around either as part of the program or afterwards as a conditioning tool, thus, long before 'Dino' type training was a catch phrase, in keeping with my background of working in my father's iron shop as a teenager and preteen, we would carry anvils, beams, and similar pieces of "stuff" or objects as a conditioning procedure.
Brian D. Johnston: You and your family (wife, sons) are extremely strong individuals. What are some of your best accomplishments?
Ken Leistner: I'm the "weenie boy" of the house. Kathy's high school records were enshrined forever in the 100 and 220-yard sprints when they switched from yards to metric measurements. Those are literally forever records now. In college she was All Big Ten in track and field, rugby, played on the field hockey team, crew team, was second in her class as a powerlifter at the World's, in the top four in the nationals four or five times, a skilled martial artist, Ms. Indiana, Ms. Central States, Ms. California, and a few other physique titles. There is nothing she hasn't done well. I'm the "weenie boy"...There is nothing she hasn't done well. Sol won two national drug-free teenage powerlifting championships and the state title a few times. Kevin and Greg were both All State football players in high school, Sol and All State musician. Greg made a few All America teams. In college, Kevin played at a higher level but Greg got more honors with All Academic and All America notices. All the kids are or were great students and really nice people. Kathy has done a great job with them. The baby, Bari Ann, is the smartest and most athletic of all, and excels at basketball, floor hockey, and martial arts.
Brian D. Johnston: I do believe we will have to feature Kathy in our Success Stories section in the very near future! I would like to hear your views on steroid and drug use, in regards to their availability, abuse, thoughts on modern-day bodybuilders, and your experience with them.
Ken Leistner: I have little contact with steroids and those who use or sell them. At the Iron Island Gym, we had a few guys using but they stayed away from me and knew I was against it. I have no idea what goes on in the street now as related to drugs as I don't bother with those people. Obviously, it hasn't helped to develop the proper work ethic.
Brian D. Johnston: I brought this up with Sergio Oliva in our last issue, that people tend to look for the easy way out, to avoid hard work. Apparently you noticed the same phenomenon. What future plans do you have?
Ken Leistner: My future plans extend no further than getting up each day. That was the goal years ago and even though my old man used to say, "get with it, the hippies left in '69", my goal is just to get through each day, take care of the family, lift and continue to get stronger and healthier.
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